Let me first congratulate blogger.com for keeping my account active 1 1/2 years without any updates. I have deleted any (one) previous posts and begin anew.
Recently, and in no part due to the Elephants winning the presidency again, I have questioned my religious belief and that of the quacks that host websites worldwide.
I wanted to start a topic asking whether it is better to simply ignore the crazies, or to try to reason with them. Sometimes no help can be offered - if you have never read about Time Cube, please spend a moment looking over the site:
http://timecube.com/On the other hand, sometimes a person will be willing to reply, regardles of their understanding of the topic. See the exchange below (Note: I have not yet heard back from "bro Joe")... Like a work email, read in reverse order.
Joe,
Thank you for your reply.
As you did not include my original inquiry in your post, you leave me at a little impasse. I think that I must have written the original message some time ago, so I must back-engineer your email, so to speak, to try and remember what my points were, exactly. Please allow me some lattitude in possible repetition.
The first thing that I'd like to comment on is your sign-off, "bro. Joe". It makes me think of a youthful pastor, possibly with tattoos and long hair, trying to be hip with the younger crowd. No shame in that; in fact I think that it is a good idea, in how you may be trying to impresse on the younger generations. Just made me smile, I guess. :)
First (as you've said), regarding US policy. I possibly overstated myself if I said that most christians believe that social services are a waste of tax dollars. However, I find exception to your (implied) assertion that state-sponsered socialism is anti-biblical. I would argue that Christ was in fact a socialist. Are Bill Gates or George Bush going to leap through the eye of the needle, so to speak? As Luke 18:22-26 would seem to admonish, those who have more should distribute the wealth to those who have less. There do not seem to be caveats to this teaching. In pure (admittedly infeasible) socialism, wealth is properly distributed among the masses. Am I to understand that you believe Jesus would say "No bread for you, you are lazy and have been here before! You are costing my disciples and I more money than it's worth."? I am going to state this here, and probably more times throughout my email: As the Christ has said (Matthew 22:34-40) "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." This does not say to me that we should only extend our hand to the religiously/politically persecuted and despondent. To love anyone as oneself, that is powerful! If you would like a glass of water, you would just as soon give it to anyone (even if they are better off than you!). This is not about rewards and punishments - it's about treating all God's people (poor, rich, homosexual, straight, saved, damned), as if they were YOU! I have never read anything in the bible that would lead me to believe that Jesus thinks that we should only benefit those "fleeing for their life for the name of Christ". If a "shift in the issue of personal responsibility was eliminated by a quasi-socialistic system being incorporated into the landscape of America that threatened to destroy many of the foundations our country was built upon," then perhaps America was (biblically speaking), founded on the wrong principles. I don't remeber Jesus saying "Get what you are able, give a little to ease your conscience!" This last statement obviously does not pertain to anyone in particular, but the hoarding of wealth at the expense of others is just plain wrong - and this is what Americans do best (myself included).
In your second paragraph, I must admit that I am chilled to the bone. 1 Corinth:5, to me, shows what has gone spectacularly wrong with the "church" from the very beginning. First, in 1 Corinth:3-4, Paul (my unfortunate namesake) dares to pass judgement in the name of our Lord. What mortal would dare such hubris, but St. Paul? For example (Romans 2:1-2): "Therefore you are without excuse, every man of you who passes judgment, for in that you judge one another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. And (1 Corinthians 4: 5): "Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each mans praise will come to him from God."
Note: I feel that this may be an insurmountable difference between you and I. There is a joke among philosophers... a demon says to Satan "They have learned the truth and are spreading the word! What will we do?". The Devil smiles and says "It's all under control - I'll make sure they institutinalize it." I believe that Paul worked tirelessly to spread his understanding of the Word, but I do not believe that he was entirely clear on the subject. We could very easily here make an argument for the Roman/Judean world in which Paul lived, and try to contextualize it, but I'm willing to guess that neither of us are immediatly interested in the wherefore's of Paul's teachings. There are many offenses to the Old Testament God (and let us not forget that Jesus was a Jew, so they extend also into his teachings), but it seems clear that we should be more concerned about the log in our eye rather than the speck in our brothers'.
Your next paragraph confuses me the most. We are in agreement that there is a difference between Old and New Testament laws. However, first and foremost, Jesus did not make a clear disctinction. He was a devout (though radical) Jew, and would have followed the scriptures of his day point for point. If there is to be a dissagreement, or a "New Testament", it must be based on the line I've referenced above (Matthew 22:34-40). Why then is homosexuality inherently wrong, while eating shellfish is okay? Both could be argued to help the individual protect themselves from viral/bacterial harm (ala OT), but both are currently marginally safe. You can argue AIDS, I can argue lead poisoning, PSP, NSP, etc. In both cases, one has to be careful. You speak of morality on this issue, but I do not recall Jesus speaking of homosexuality. Don't tell me that He was unaware of the practice (being Roman/Judean), and don't tell me that He was as prudish as people would believe. If He was "hanging out" with tax collectors and prostitutes, why would homosexuality have been any different? He was trying to convey love, not exclusion.
Finally, in response to your last paragraph, you state: "The world's religions say in essence that they can by pass Christ and spend eternity with His Father." In only a certain sense is this true - that being that other than Christianity, no other religion requires belief in Jesus as the Son of God. However, the OT God did not provide this caveat - are the Jews all going to hell, despite their fealty to the first commandment? Even the Chosen (as opossed to we Goyim?) The New Testament states (paraphrasing) that we Love God above all else (most religions would agree), and that we love our neighbor as ourselves (again, most religions agree - the so called Golden Rule). Christ was a Jew first - he says that he is the Light and the Life. But are we to think that humble Christ meant this was to mean that only in believing that he was crucified and came back from the dead was the only way to Heaven? I have always thought that it meant that one capitulates to His teachings, not to He, himself. He is the way and the life in that He has made clear what is important, not in that we should bow down to a torture/execution device (cross) to worship God. If Jesus is an extension of God, we should worship God and His wishes, not his mortal son. (Bypass the obvious Trinity arguments here!). The son was sent to further clarify the Word of God, not to be worshipped in and of Himslef.
Thank you for your time, and I do await your reply (though it would be easier for me if you include my post in your reply!)
Sincerely,
-me
----- Original Message -----
From:
Joe SinkoTo: me
Cc:
Hope@eden.orgSent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 8:27 PM
Subject: Theological Questions
Hello KOM,
My name is Joe, I'm a pastor in Oklahoma who volunteers with ChristianAnswers.Net, to answer questions. Thanks for contacting the website and giving us an opportunity to serve you. I will do my best to answer your questions from the Scripture and a biblical world-view.
First, regarding your statement about politics in the U.S., I think you are wrong in your assertion that most "Christian" people think that social services are a waste of tax dollars. As a person who is socially involved myself, I think the issue is more complicated than that. What most conservative Christians find trouble supporting is the government welfare state that is highly akin to state-sponsored socialism. Nobody I know in the body of Christ is against giving a person who needs help a hand up. The problem is when people become conditioned for hand outs. This does them no good as human beings and violates God's principles about work found throughout the Bible. Also, there are a lot of tax dollars (hundreds of millions) wasted on programs that have no benefit at all to the poor. The government should not only practice good stewardship, but for the sake of our citizens it should practice sound stewardship as well. Many years ago a fundamental shift in the issue of personal responsibility was eliminated by a quasi-socialistic system being incorporated into the landscape of America that threatened to destroy many of the foundations our country was built upon. In context, the Scripture you referenced has nothing to do with helping the poor, although there are very many Scriptural injunctions that pass that responsibility to Christian people, a job, I regret, many of us fall far short on. Jesus said, "The poor you always have with you." The verse you reference has to do with giving aid and comfort to those who are suffering persecution. The cost of giving someone fleeing for their life for the name of Christ could actually cost someone their lives in some situations. The point is that those who gives a cup of cold water (aid) to someone in the name of God (our brothers and sisters), when they are fleeing for their lives because of their faith in God, may also cost us our lives. Are you ready to pay that price knowing that God will reward you in eternity? That's how we are all supposed to be and how we are supposed to look at it.
Concerning the Scripture you referenced about "judging", again, the context will help you understand what's being said. I agree with you that Christians can be way to harsh on others, especially other Christians, but the point here is not to be guilty of condemning someone to hell when you yourself may be just as guilty of something you're condemning someone over. Just because we have sin in our own lives does not mean we are to turn our heads to the sins of others as if to justify them (see 1 Corinthians 5). All sin is an offense to God no matter what it is. It was because of our sins that Jesus was born, suffered, died and rose again. The judgment for the sins of the world were placed on Christ on Calvary. We pray that others would be delivered from their sins and that God would keep us also from temptation. There is no question that homosexuality, prostitution and gambling are sins to be condemned for what they are--an offense to a holy God. But, so also is lying, cheating, stealing, breaking the law, lust, cursing, etc. When we are "in Christ" the Bible says we are "new creations" (1 Cor 5:17ff) and are expected to live as new creations if we have truly been born again (John 3:3, Romans 6-8; 12, Galatians 5, Hebrews 12, etc.). We should not condemn the sinner who participates in sin, we should hate the sin for what it does to the unredeemed. Sin destroys lives! Jesus said, "The thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy. But I have come that you might have life, and life more abundantly." (John 10:10. ) We should repent of our own sins and pray for those who are not walking on the straight and narrow path that leads to life!
Concering the issue of shell fish, etc, Christians are not at all violating laws regarding Jewish dietary restrictions. These laws in the Old Testament were given for many reasons to the Jews. God was protecting them because they didn't have the processing and refridgeration equipment we have today, and, He was making sure that they didn't eat as did the pagans around them. As Christians, we are clearly not under the Old Testament Levitical Laws. Paul said we could eat anything if we receive it with thanksgiving and prayer. To interpret the Bible properly we must understand the difference between Old Covenant laws that applied solely to Israel, and how we are to understand the moral laws and theological teachings of the New Covenant in the New Testament so as not to get confused. There are many Scriptures that deal with this as well and if you'd like I'd be glad to send them to you!
I agree with you, Jesus did give us Matthew 22:36-40, in fact, the entire Bible is His word to us! The only thing we are to hate in the Bible is sin and its defiling effects on people. We live in a fallen world that is full of false teachings, false religions, false philosophy, etc. As a Christian I'm not only supposed to love my neighbors, but also my enemies. When you speak of exclusion you may not fully understand the truth that Jesus said about Himself in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but by Me." Religion is often man-made and is full of man-made ideas about how to make it to "god." Christians do not exclude other religions, God has said the way we must come to Him, and that's through His Son. What every person needs is to be perfectly righteous in God's eyes. We are born sinners because of Adam's fall in the Garden of Eden. We are sinners by birth and choice. Jesus, obviously, was not! So, He took our sins and judgment on the cross so that when we accept Him as Savior we get the gift of His perfect righteousness (Romans 5) and are sealed forever by the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:29-30). I stand perfectly in God's sight because I've trusted and accepted what Christ His Son did for me (and you). The world's religions say in essence that they can by pass Christ and spend eternity with His Father. This is impossible because God is holy and has reached down to all of us in love. So, it's not that Christians are excluding anyone, it's that God will not allow them to be in His perfect Heaven for eternity because they have rejected the only way to Him.
KOM, I LOVE talking to people and helping them understand what is true theologically and philosophically. Please continue to talk to me and ask any questions you have so I can help you understand the Christian faith better.
God bles,
Bro. Joe
